Farewell, Mark Driscoll? Not yet but getting closer…
Another Addendum:
As I continue to come across Driscoll’s teachings, I see that in some places he states a very traditional interpretation of Acts and of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. At other times he says confusing things about the gifts being fully functional today as they were in Acts. I conclude the difference to be a clumsy method of conversational speech. He seems to employ a very conversational form of speaking. Lacking formality could explain why he seems to contradict himself.
Addendum: New Information
I continue to seek information on Mark and his charismatic stance. He sometimes seems quite charismatic even claiming to hear an audible message from God (according to one source http://adrianwarnock.com/2008/07/toam08-mark-driscoll-doctrine-of-holy/ ). He also distances himself from some charismatics at times.
I continue to be somewhat concerned at his sometimes crass and crude manner of speaking when he is preaching but that is another topic. I still see him as claiming to believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as employed by the Apostles continuing to function today which is a clear break from mainstream reformed and dispensational circles. End of Addendum
An editorial from the Truthinator…
Mark Driscoll (aka the cussin’ preacher) has been a star of the young and of the reformed of all ages for years now. He’s hip, relevant, and downright cool if you go for that alternative, grungy look in a preacher. He looks like a 35-year-old who is trying to look like a teenager with the oh-so-predictable t-shirt, blue jeans, and hair that is scrunched up in the front. More importantly than his style preferences is his coarse talk from the pulpit that has raised more than a few eyebrows. Style is not necessarily wrong and Driscoll is certainly not the only style-centric preacher out there; the coarse talk thing is, well, concern-causing shall we say but not today’s topic.
The whole ‘relevant’ thing and coarse talk are topics of discussion for another day but I want to address what Mr. Driscoll believes. Afterall, what he believes should be the reason people flock to him or run away from him, right? I’m sure he’s a nice guy, he loves his family, he wants what is best for his church and so forth. No one is saying he is corrupt or evil. But what does he believe?
I heard him say in an unedited clip exactly what he believes. He distanced himself from Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, and Rob Bell which is good. He said he has no part in the Emergent Village which is also good. He said he stood with the reformers and called out John Calvin and CH Spurgeon’s names for added emphasis. He said he identifies with John Piper, JI Packer, and others. I do not see eye-to-eye with the reformed perspective people on Revelation or Israel but otherwise they are pretty good on God’s sovereignty and a Christian’s life of faith. No huge problem so far.
My main problem with Driscoll’s beliefs lies in the next tidbit of information he revealed. He said he is fully charismatic and believes all of the Apostolic gifts are fully functional today. Woe, what? You’ve got to be kidding me, Mark. All of the Apostolic gifts are fully functional today? You just alienated yourself from most if not all of the reformers you previously mentioned. I don’t understand how he got to this point of belief and I will continue to look for deeper explanation from him but I have to say beware. Beware of anyone who claims the Apostolic gifts are fully functioning today. This is dangerous ground of incomplete understanding. I can’t say that Driscoll is totally off-base because I haven’t studied him in-depth but I do say there is reason to be concerned. Let’s continue to look for more info about his charistmaticism and continue later.
What are your thoughts on Driscoll?
Tags: Benny Hinn, Brian McLaren, CH Spurgeon, Charismatic, Doug Pagitt, Faith Healers, John Calvin, Mark Driscoll, Pentacostal, Reformed, Rick Warren, Rob Bell, Word of Faith
Truthinator's Blog 
JNj.
April 13, 2011 at 1:27 am
Did he say” the apostolic gifts” or “the gifts of the Holy Spirit”and, if he said “the apostolic gifts”, does this mean he believes there are still apostles around today (with all that that would implicate)?
Truthinator
April 13, 2011 at 4:55 am
I heard him say that he is “fully charismatic” and that the “Apostolic gifts” are “fully functional” today. Now, could he have meant something else? I suppose but these are the words he used.
I talked about this with some reformed fans of his and they immediately defended him assuming he just meant that the Holy Spirit is still active however God chooses to work but this is not what Mark said.
I will find the video link and post it. Mark is using some very precise language. He may not have meant exactly what he said but he certainly gave the impression that he believes in fully functioning Apostolic gifts.
Thanks for commenting.
JNj.
April 13, 2011 at 6:00 am
You asked for thoughts on Driscoll. I heard him speaking about the gospel on different times and what he said was biblical, very clear and uplifting. So far, so good.
My question about the gifts – “apostolic” or “of the Holy Spirit” came out of the following thoughts: Could it be, that he has any connection with this “New Apostolic Reformation” of C. Peter Wagner and his company? I hope not and actual I think he is too well trained theologically than to go into something like this. On the other hand I have seen reformed people (and Reconstructionsts) taking over different (sometimes very wealthy) charismatic/pentecostal churches (all with a dispensational background, which is now gone) here in Germany. This is something Dave Hunt predicted in his book “What ever happened to heaven?” in the late 80’s. So theese are my reasons for being interested in what is/what might happening out there.
BTW: Thanks for answering & thanks for posting about!
Truthinator
April 13, 2011 at 6:07 am
Thanks. You totally get what I was trying to point out. This is quite interesting. I would also like to know exactly what Driscoll is talking about since he seems to be quite good on most doctrine but holds to some questionable ideas in some areas.
Let’s try to keep each other informed. I’ll post more when I find it. You do the same. Thanks again and welcome!
Truthinator
April 13, 2011 at 11:33 am
Here is the link
He says it pretty fast and it is not so clear as I first thought but he still gives me the impression he believes in all of the gifts functioning today… which as I see it would have to be Apostolic gifts since obviously the Holy Spirit functions today. And he carefully says “all” of the gifts which makes me think I was mostly correct in my previous understanding of what he said. Anyway, listen and see what you think. Thanks.
Todd Fast
April 15, 2011 at 8:14 pm
Interesting for a guy who says he’s never spoken in tongues. He does not strike me as the Apostolic type. I wonder what Apostolic gifts he claims to have?
Truthinator
April 15, 2011 at 10:46 pm
I’m not sure about his use of “gifts” but he sees all of the same gifts still existing today that are described in scripture in Acts according to how I understood him.
I personally believe God can do anything He wants and still heals people and still gifts believers but not with the Apostolic gifts. I have yet to see anyone prophesy and be 100% accurate 100% of the time or heal on command or raise the dead… etc.
JNj.
April 18, 2011 at 8:22 am
Truthinator,
thanks for posting the video. We had a conference last week and I was busy so far, but I took the time to look at the video. What he said in the video is what I remember having heard of him. I remember also that I have read statements about the gifts in different reformed blogs. But I have to look into that too and will post the links, when I find them agein.
What you said about the gifts seems to be almost the same I see it. I’m a dispensationalist, but I’m not a cessationist in that way, that God can and will still doing everything He likes – doing wonders, healing people etc. But when it comes to apostles and prophets we have a clear statement in Eph. 2, 20. They are the foundation of the church and a foundation is laid once and forever, but not again and again. I also have not seen a so called propecy to be 100 % accurate. And we should see: Most of thoose groups, wich reinvented the apostolic ministry went very wrong in their doctrine. I expoecially see it with the Mormons, the New Apostolic Reformation (Wagner, Joyner etc.), the New Apostolich Church, wich has nothing to do with the New Apostolic reformation (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Church and: http://www.nac-usa.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&WebsiteKey=db54e48b-1823-41a6-a0e1-550a2f14ef51) They are not that big in Northamerica, but the fouthbigges church in germany.
Truthinator
April 18, 2011 at 9:57 am
JNJ,
Thanks for your reply. I will check out the links you provided.
Continuing with our discussion, it bothers me when people mix stuff together that doesn’t make sense. Driscoll seems pretty good if not really good in some areas. Then he goes and says the charsmatic stuff and the hearing God’s audible voice stuff (which I believe he really said since the context seems to support it). He also has some questionable acquaintances who he appears at conferences with even though this does not necessarily implicate him. It is almost as if he walks so near the edges that a puff of wind could blow him across if that makes sense to you.
I try never to walk too near the edge of unorthodoxy. I see no benefit in it. Sure, you can have more friends but you are not glorifying God as far as I can tell.
Thanks again,
T.
JNj.
April 18, 2011 at 11:57 am
Truthinator,
first: excuse my mistakes in the text above, I was in a hurry.
Than: After reading this post: http://newleaven.com/2009/05/12/mark-driscoll-on-spiritual-gifts/ – which I remembered, I went to the website of Driscolls’ church and found a series of sermons about 1st Corinthians, look here: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/1st-corinthians?page=3 There is also a series of sermons about spiritual gifts. I had no time yet, to listen to ist, but I will as soon I have time, hopefully on the weekend. And I’m very interested in what he has to say. There is also an article about the spiritual gifts in the articles-of-faith-section, see: http://www.marshillchurch.org/about/what-we-believe
For now: greetings and God bless,
JNj.
Ben
May 3, 2011 at 1:57 pm
I’ve followed Driscoll for a long time and once again here’s someone talking BEFORE doing the investigating. Isn’t there something about this in the Bible that you defend?
It should be a HUGE concern that Christians continue to attack each other on hearsay.
He sees the title Apostle being fulfilled in two ways. The early Apostles as receiving an authority for laying down Scripture…today’s apostles as establishing churches without the authority of the early apostles.
Truthinator
May 4, 2011 at 9:41 am
Hi Ben,
Thanks for commenting. You are welcome to stop by anytime.
I don’t think the article or video is insinuating anything without doing investigation. The video is an actual presentation given by Mark at his church telling folks exactly what he believes! That should narrow things down pretty well.
My concerns with Driscoll are his friends in the ministry and those he associates with professionally, his apparent desire for some form of agreement( or getting along) even with people he claims not to agree with Theologically, his somewhat crude manner of speaking in professional settings (sometimes), and his admitted belief that all of the gifts are fully functioning.
The claim someone made that he said he heard God audibly, if accurate, would be very troublesome for me as well.
This is a vetting of sorts that has been going on for a while. Mark does many things well and other things that leaves questions. I am sure you would agree that we should know what others believe and do in order to make sure we are all abiding in God’s word and acting accordingly. No one is throwing anyone under a bus unfairly here.
More later…
JNj.
May 4, 2011 at 7:31 am
Hi Truthinator,
last Sunday I found time to hear the first two parts of his sermon series about the gifts in 1st Corinthians and as soon I have time, I will hear the rest of this series. Until now I understand him that wqay, that he believes in all the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1. Cor. 12-14. He makes a very clear difference between cessationists, charismatics, so called “charismaniacs” and pentecostals in the first part of the serie. In the group he called “charismaniacs” he puts people like those from the so called “Toronto Blessing” etc. I think and so he tries to distance them from the other “charismatics”. Than he says, pentecostals are those, who believe you only have the Holy Spirit if you speak in tongues.
I have some remarks to make to this: 1) About his defintion of the pentecostals: I have come to know hundereds of pentecostals in Germany and no one of whom I know, would make such a statement like Driscoll says. Every pentecostal I came to know in the 30 years of my walk with the Lord said, that christians receive the Holy Spirit on the day they are borne again. IThis is also explicitly said the statements of faith of the main pentecsostal churches here. Only some splinter groups teach, what Driscoll says about pentecostals at all. It may be so in the US, but here in Germany his definition would not fit. 2) The same goes with the title “apostle”. Pentecostals in Germany have stated years ago, that there may be men, who work “like an apostle” in the way that they build churches, but that those men sould never be called “apostle”, because this work alone does not qualify someone as an apostle in the new testament definition.
3) The difference he makes between charismatics and so called charismanicas does also not fit with what I see here in Germany. Nearly every “new charismaniac wave” enters what we call the “charismatic movement” here in Germany sooner or later. We have seen this with the so called Toronto Blessing, with the so called Lakeland Revival etc. So from my viewpoint one can make no difference between “charismatics” and “charismaniacs” here in Germany. In the US it may be so, but not here.
4) As I said, I had only time to hear part one and two of the series, but I wonder from where he gets his definitions about the spiritual gifts. As far as I know, we have only one clear defintion and that’s the one about prophecy (see 1st Corinthians 14:3). Things would be much esier, if the Scriptures would give us such definitions about every gift.
This is what I think about right now and I’m looking forward to hear the rest of this sermon series.
Greetings and God bless you,
JNj.
JNj.
May 4, 2011 at 7:37 am
Ben,
as far as I understand Truthinator, he has no intention to attack Mark Driscoll but to investigate his teachings. That’s also my intention and the reason why I hear his sermon series about this topic. I have heard some other sermons of him (about discipleship, the Lord Jesus etc.) and felt greatly blessed. I have no intention to attack him and I would be very sad and grieving if I should find ties between him and the men/ministries around C. Peter Wagner and his false “apostles”.
Greetings and God bless you,
JNj.
MRWBBIII
August 19, 2011 at 1:51 am
JOHN MACARTHUR – ROB BELL RICK WARREN MARK DRISCOLL SERMON JAM